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Trial
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Text: Peter was tried for and acquitted of forgery at the Old Bailey. The transcript as follows:
Peter CATAPODI was indicted for that he, on the 5th of August, feloniously did falsely make, forge, and counterfeit, and did cause to be falsely made, forged, and counterfeited, and did willingly act and assist in falsely making, forging, and counterfeiting a certain paper writing, purporting to be a promissory note for the payment of money, with the name of J. Sanders there to subscribed, purporting to be drawn by J. Sanders, at Plymouth, the 2d of June 1795, for payment to the bearer on demand, at Plymouth aforesaid, or at Messrs. Hankey, Chaplin, Hall, and Hankey, banker s, London, the sum of five guineas, value received, with intention to defraud Joseph Chaplin Hankey , Esq. Stephen Hall , Esq.Robert Hankey , Esq. Richard Hankey , Esq. Robert Augustus Hankey, Esq. and George Garthum , Esq.
A Second COUNT for uttering a like forged note, with the same intention.(The indictment opened by Mr. Knapp, and the case by Mr. Const.)
PATRICK BLAKE sworn.
Q. What are you? - When I am not employed in the public service; I am engaged with Mr. Walker, an upholsterer, in Covent Garden.
Q. What do you mean by being employed in the public service? - I am employed sometimes to apprehend people for different misdemeanors.
Q. Do you mean in the bill way? - Yes, that and some other ways.
Q. You was employed by the association of bankers on this occasion? - Yes, by the solicitor.
Q. How long have you known Catapodi? - About three years.
Q. Will you tell us what you know about the five guinea note that is the subject of this charge? - When Mr. Catapodi was taken into custody about the 13th of July, to New Prison Clerkenwell, I there waited on him.
Q. That was not for this offence? - That was the beginning of it.
Q. Come immediately to the subject of these five guinea notes? - The first note he gave me was in the prison.
Q. When did he give you that? - I believe it might be about the 13th of August. It was a blank note; he gave it me to negotiate, and at the same time gave me a list of names which the solicitor of the bankers had given about, and he marked with a pencil those that I was not to go near.
Q. What was the amount of that note? - It was a five pound.
Q. Do you recollect on what banker it was drawn? - No, I do not recollect; I believe it was on Sir Robert Herries or Meslis. Hankey. (A note shewn him.)
Q. Tell us whether that was the note that he gave you? - This is the first note, I know it by the tare at the bottom of it.
Q. That is on Sir Robert Herries, that was not signed at the time, nor is it signed now? - No, I was to sign it, or get it signed, and he gave me a list of the shops that had been done; fearful I should go to those shops; I returned, and told him I could not do it, but I would get a friend to do it; he asked me who it was? I said it was a friend that meant to send them to Wales, and there they would be far distant from the town; that was my own idea to him, that he should not be urgent for the money immediately. The second note I had was in about two days after.
Q. What was that note for? - It was for five guineas; I cannot say particularly that I should know the note again, because there was no mark, and there was so many of them.
Q. Look at that note. (A note shewn him) - I am pretty positive, I would not swear, but I am pretty sure it is. This is a note on Messrs. Hankeys for five guineas.
Q. Which ever was the note, did you give the same note to Mr. Whittard and Mr. Winbolt? - I gave them first to Mr. Ellison, Mr. Ellison viewing the stamp to be forged, sent me to Mr. Escourt and Whittard, solicitors for the Stamp office, and clerk in the Stamp office. When he gave me the second note, he told me that as soon as he could raise fifty pounds, he would have a plate to work the Bank of England. I took this second one likewise to Mr. Ellison, Mr. Ellison viewed that likewise; but mentioning the Bank of England, I thought it my duty to go to Mr. Winter, the solicitor for the Bank, I went to him to shew him this second note, the five guinea note, as soon as I shewed it to Mr. Winter I took it to Mr. Escourt and Whittard, and there Mr. Ellison met me; then Mr. Whittard gave me some money; I then went to the prison, and I gave Mr. Catipodi some money.
Q. How much did he give you? - He gave me four guineas.
Q. What did you do when you came to Mr. Catipodi? - I took him some money and provisions.
Q. How much money did you give him? - I cannot absolutely say the sum. When this was over, which was the conclusion of the week, he came up to Bow-street, and was dismissed; I took the two notes from Mr. Whittard to Mr. Winbolt.
Q. Were the same that you delivered to Mr. Winbolt afterwards, the same as you describe to have given Mr. Whittard before? - Yes, the very same; then a very few days elapsed before he was discharged, he was discharged the 20th of July; then there were various appointments between Mr. Catipodi and me till the 8th of August; there were people who were negotiating these bills, and we sometimes met them in St. James's Park, sometimes in one place and sometimes in another. But however on the 5th of August he gave me the bill in question, which is the subject of the present indictment, he gave it me in the avenue, or lane, leading from his garden door in Frog-lane, or Frogmore-lane, I slington; he then gave me the bill signed, I. Sanders, and he made an observation that he wished the ink had been different, he said it was not so well as if the two inks had been different, the writing of the entering clerk and the signature of the bill.
Q. Did he tell you what you was to do with this note? - To negotiate it, and to make all the haste possible to do it. Previous to this we agreed to go to Southampton, and all the coasts about, as soon as we could raise as much money as we could travel genteelly down; I offered to go with him as an attendant, but there were two or three to go with him as occomplices; this was in the afternoon, between four and five o'clock. I could not see Mr. Ellison at his office that evening, immediately I waited on him at his house in Sloan-place, Chelsea; he likewise viewed this not to be quite perfect; I went to Mr. Whittard, and Mr. Whittard took a good impression of the stamp, and compared them, and said this is not a forgery.
Q. Meaning not a forged stamp? - Yes. Immediately I went to Mr. Winbolt, the solicitor for the Bank of England. I am sure this is the note, I marked.
Q. You say you gave this note to Mr. Winbolt? - I did, I told Mr. Winbolt that he was very urgent for money, and I must take him something, and Mr. Winbolt gave me a guinea; it was then towards the evening, and the next day, as Mr. Catipodi met his accomplices down at the parade at St James's, the Horse Guards, at eleven o'clock, which was the usual hour of exercising, there I met Catipodi as usual, then I gave him four shillings out of the guinea; he had some other people whom he expected money of, he did expect money of three different people I believe; he complained very much that the people who had his bills did not come forward as they ought to do with the money for the bills that he gave them, and he threatened to impeach some of them.(The bill read by the clerk of the court.)
"No. 5094. 5l. 5s.
Plymouth, June 2d 1795.
I promise to pay to the bearer on demand, here or at Messrs. Hankey, Chaplain, Hall, and Hankey, bankers, London, five guineas, value received.
Five guineas. I. Sanders."
Entered A. Clarkson.
Mr. Alley. I take it for granted that as you are on your oath, what you have told to day is true? - Every word is true.
Q. You have told us that you were employed by Mr. Winbolt, on your oath were you? - I have been so far employed by Mr. Winbolt, that I have done Mr. Winbolt and his client service, and Mr. Winbolt paid me for it; Mr. Ellison recommended me to Mr. Winbolt; I was employed by both so far.
Q. Then I suppose if Mr. Winbolt should swear that he did not employ you, he is guilty of perjury; do you mean to swear on your oath that you was employed by him? - I will not say that Mr. Winbolt ever sent for me, I cannot say that I was employed under Mr. Winbolt by any means.
Q. Let me ask you what you meant by being employed in the service of the public, and that that was the way you got your livelihood? - No, far from it; I have told you the truth.
Q. What is this public service? - It is a public service that I must not mention.
Q. In plain English are you not acting as a common informer? - No, never was in that kind of way in my life.
Court. He is not bound to aNew South Waleser that question.
Q. You have told us that you gave two blank notes to Mr. Winbolt, when was it you gave him them? - The first was I believe in July, about the 19th.
Q. How long is it since this note in question was given Mr. Winbolt? - On the 5th of August.
Q. Then Mr. Winbolt had the intervening time from the 19th of July to the 5th of August, to enquire into these notes? - He did not think any thing at all of these notes; M. Winbolt knew his practices for some time.
Q. Did not you represent it to Mr. Winbolt as a bank note? - I thought it was my duty, I had no occasion of making any representation of it.
Q. Did not you first enquire of Mr. Ellison whether the stamp was a good one or a bad one? - I did not enquire any thing at all of Mr. Ellison, but whether it was a forged note or not.
Q. Who desired you to do that? - Mr. Whittard and Mr. Escourt.
Q. On that occasion did Mr. Winbolt know of your having been at the Stamp office? - I told him when I gave him the note that I had been, and the stamp was not forged; Mr. Winbolt looked at it, and I said I must take Mr. Catipodi some money, and he gave me a guinea.
Q. Now Mr. Patrick Blake, how much money did you receive of Mr. Whittard? - Mr. Whittard gave me four guineas.
Q. Did not you get these four guineas as a reward to encourage you to go forward? - Upon my word it was not; part I gave to Catipodi and part I kept.
Q. How much did you give him? - I cannot tell, as I am on my oath.
Q. But you shall tell. Did you give the half? - I cannot say.
Q. Did you give him the fourth? - Upon my word I cannot tell.
Q. Did you give him a guinea? - It may be more or it may be less.
Q. Did you give him as much as five shillings? - Yes, a vast deal; or three times five.
Q. At the time Mr. Winbolt gave you a guinea on this last note, what did Mr. Winbolt say to you? - Mr. Winbolt seemed in a hurry, and there was no conversation at all about it.
Q. How long was the note in Mr. Winbolt's hands before he gave you the guinea? - It was not five minutes, because he was in a hurry, going out.
Q. You represented to Mr. Winbolt what you wanted the money for? - Certainly.
Q. How long have you lived in London? - Above sixteen years.
Q. Have you continued in London during that time? - Yes, except such time as I was clerk to Sir Paul - , down at Boxley Abbey.
Q. How long is it since you were at Dublin? I believe you are an Irishman? - About nineteen years.
Q. Do you mean to swear that you have never been in Dublin these nineteen years? - I will swear it.
Q. Then if any body shall say that you was concerned in the robbery on the lottery wheel there, then they will swear that that is false? - Indeed they will.
Q. In this town have you ever employed yourself as giving bail for several persons, and receiving money for so doing?
Court. You cannot answer such questions.
Mr. Alley. Have you ever given bail for the prisoner and his son? - I did, about three years ago.
CHARLES STEVENS sworn.
Q. You are clerk to Messrs. Hankeys? - I am.
Q. What is the firm of your house? - Joseph Chaplain Hankey, Stephen Hall, Robert Hankey, Richard Hankey, Augustus Robert Hankey, and George Garthum .
Q. Will you look at that bill; the signature is I. Sanders. Have you any person who keeps cash at your house? - Not residing at Plymouth, we have no correspondent at Plymouth.
Mr. Alley. Is the firm of your house exactly described on that bill? - Not exactly.
Q. Tell us the variance? - On that bill it is Messrs. Hankey, Chaplin, Hall, and Hankey.
Mr. Const. I believe I need not ask you if there are any other Hankeys in England? - None.
CLEMENTSON WOOLLEY sworn.
Q. I believe you have been at Plymouth, from whence this note is dated? - Yes, I am clerk to Mr. Winbolt, solicitor for the association.
Q. You went to Plymouth; did you take every pains that occurred to you to find out such a person as I. Sanders? - I did.
Q. Did you find out any one person of the name? - I did not.
Q. Either mercantile house, banking houses, or any other? - There are only two banking houses there.
Q. Did you go to the collectors of the taxes? - I did, I searched the parish books, I went to the post office, &c. and could not find such a person.
JAMES WINBOLT sworn.
Q. You are the solicitor for the association of bankers of London and Westminster. Do you remember Mr. Blake coming to you on the latter end of July? - Yes, he did; on the 25th of July he brought me these two blank notes; I told him I thought they were of no consequence, but desired him to leave them with me.
Q. Did you afterwards see him? - On the 6th of August he came to me, and brought me this note that is stated in the indictment, he told me it was given to him by the prisoner at the bar, to negociate.
Q. He produced it to you and left it? - He did, I asked him to leave it, and he said he would, he said that Catipodi would expect something, I gave him a guinea; the note I have had in my custody ever since.
- WHITTARD sworn.
Q. I believe you are in the Solicitor's office, in the department of stamps. I only want to know whether you was privy to these circumstances which have been mentioned by Blake? - I was.
Mr. Alley to Winbolt. At the time you gave the money you knew the bill was forged? - I expected it was.
Q. You did not give it him in fair negociation? - I did not.
Mr. Const to Whittard. Did you examine the stamps on his producing the bills to you? - I did.
Q. Do you know whether Mr. Ellison was privy to these transactions? - He was.
Mr. Alley submitted to the court, that in this case, the evidence went no further than having this forged note in his possession, but not of his forging or uttering, with an intent to defraud.
Court. That is the question which the jury have to decide; if a man merely forges a note, and takes no steps on that note; there is no evidence of his intention to defraud, but if he takes any steps on that note; then there is evidence to go to a jury, for to decide whether he meant to defraud or no.
Prisoner. My lord, and gentlemen of the jury, the only evidence that has been adduced against me in this prosecution is, Patrick Blake; my lord must permit me to observe to the gentlemen of the jury, that it is the testimony of a man that has been well known to be guilty of every species of perjury and fraud; and it is not justice that has impelled him to this prosecution; no, his corrupt heart is destitute of every honest sentiment, and he is induced to this prosecution by hopes of a reward, which he is promised if he can prevail on you to pronounce me guilty; under these hopes he comes into this honourable court, and endeavours by falshood to mislead your judgment, and under the mask of justice he endeavours to rob me of my existence. Painful as my situation is, I feel a singular satisfaction that I am tried in this tribunal, and under your lordship's direction I leave my cause; I have no witnesses, I thought Blake's character was sufficiently notorious to be known by some of the jury, or some of the gentlemen in this court.
Not GUILTY.
Tried by the first Middlesex Jury before Mr. Justice HEATH.
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Trial
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Text: Peter was again on trial for forgery and again was found not guilty:
JOHN MACKAY, HENRY FOSS, and PETER CATAPODI, were indicted for feloniously forging, on the 6th of December, a promissory note for the payment of money, to the tenor following:
No. 23,763. Edinburgh, 1st August, 1780. £5.
"The British Linen Company promise to pay on demand to William, Baillie, or bearer, five pounds Herling, value received, by order of the Court of Directors, William Henderson, per Manager, L 5. D. Hogarth, per Account, "with intent to defraud John Newell.
Second Count. For uttering and publishing the same as true, knowing it to be forged, with the like intention.
Third and Fourth Counts. Charging the intention to be to defraud the British Linen Company .
(The indictment was opened by Mr. Knapp, and the case by Mr. Knowlys.)
JOHN ALDER sworn. - Examined by Mr. Knapp.
Q.Did you keep the Cock and Lion public-house on the 6th of December last? - A. Yes.
Q.Do you know the person of the prisoner, Mackay? - A. Yes.
Q.Which is he? - A. The man in a blue coat.
Q. Do you remember his coming to your house that day? - A. To the best of my knowledge.
Q.Will you swear he is the man? - A.No, I cannot swear it.
Q.Have you any doubt about it? - A.No.
Q.What time did he come to your house? - A. About four o'clock in the afternoon.
Q. Was there a Captain Ward there? - A. Yes, he was writing a letter there.
Q.He is the Captain of a Berwick smack? - A. He was Captain of the Tweed packet.
Q.Do you remember the prisoner, Mackay, making any application to Captain Ward? - A. I was not in the room at the time he made application to Captain Ward.
Q.Were you in the room when he applied to any body? - A. I was present when he applied to Mr. Newell, and got change for a five-pound Scotch note; Mr. Newell came in after Mackay was there; Mackay said, he had taken it in payment of ten pounds.
Q.Did you see the Scotch note? - A. I saw it afterwards.
Q.It was a five-pound Bank-note? - A. Yes, of the British Linen Company, at Edinburgh.
Q.Did Newell give him the charge? - A. He did.
Q.After he had given him the change, did Mackay pay you for any liquor that he had? - A. He paid me for four pennyworth of gin and water.
Q.Before he went out in the prefence of Mackay, was any thing discovered respecting this note? - A. No, I saw the note given, but did not see it changed.
Cross-examined by Mr. Gurney. Q.Your memory is better now than when you were at Bow-street - you could not recollect his person at all there? - A. I believed he was the person.
Q.Did you say you had no doubt about it there? - A. I said I believed he was the person, and then I said I had no doubt.
Q.Are you sure of it? - A. Yes.
Q.Had you ever seen him before? - A.No.
Q.When you saw him at Bow-street, you saw him in custody? - A. Yes.
Q.You were told that you should find the man there that had changed the note? - A. Yes.
JOHN NEWELL sworn. - Examined by Mr. Knapp. I am a coal-merchant, and live in Burr-street, East Smithfield.
Q.Were you at the Cock and Lion on the 6th of December? - A. I was.
Q. Do you remember Captain Ward being there? - A. Yes, he was there.
Q. Do you remember seeing any person coming there that evening? - A. No, I did not see any body come in; I was just come in myself.
Q. Do you remember any person making application to you about a note? - A.There was a person sitting in the dark part of the room, for it was very near night; Captain Ward said the person had been waiting half an hour for change for a fivepound note, and he said, as I had been in the habit of taking Scotch notes, it would oblige the man if I would change it; the man came to me, and produced me note in the middle of the room; I took the note to the window, and observed it was the British Linen Company's note; I had no doubt at that time of its being a good one.
Q.Do you know now who that person was who gave you the note? - A.No, I do not.
Q.Did you give the change for the note to that person, whoever he was? - A. I did.
Q.Did you keep the note? - A. Yes.
Q.How soon did you discover that that note was a bad one? - A.About ten minutes.
Q.How long did the man stay in the room after he had given you the note? - A.Not a minute; as soon as he had got the change, he went away directly; I went to the light to see the note; I observed the two signatures to the note to be of the same hand-writing; there was no water-mark, and therefore I suspected it.
Q.Should you know the note again if you was to see it? - A. Yes, I put my initials upon it before I parted with it, and it has a spot of grease upon the middle of it.
Q. Is that the note? (Shewing it him) - A. Yes, it is.
WILLIAM SINCLAIR sworn. - Examined by Mr. Knapp. Q. You have got the charter of the British Linen Company? - A. I have. (Produces it.)
Q. Be so good as look at that note, and tell me if you are acquainted with the British Linen Company, and if the names of Henderson and Hogarth are the hand-writing of those gentlemen? - A. That is not a genuine note of the British Linen Company; these are not the subscriptions of William Henderson or David Hogarth .
Q.Are you acquainted with their hand-writing? - A. Yes, I am quite samilar with their handwriting; I have seen them write often.
Q.You are sure it is not their signatures? - A. I am sure of it.
Q.Are those persons employed to sign notes? - A. Yes, with others; they have authority from the Court of Directors to do so.
Cross-examined by Mr. Alley. Q. Was the charter granted before or since the Union? - A.Since the Union; I think it was in the year 1744.
Q.Have you a share in this Company? - A. No.
DAVID HOGARTH sworn. - Examined by Mr. knapp. Q.Are you a member of the Company? - A.No.
Q.Are you acquainted with the hand-writing of the gentleman who subscribed that note? - A. Yes, perfectly.
Q.You are one? - A. Yes.
Q. Is that David Hogarth your hand-writing? - A.It is not.
Q. Is Mr. Henderson's name his hand-writing? - A.It is not.
Q.Are you perfectly well acquainted with his hand-writing - A. Yes, I am. (The note read.)
ANDREW READ sworn - Q. I believe you keep a public-house? - A. Yes, the St. Andrew, in Lower East-Smithfield, near the Hermitage-bridge.
Q. Do you know a person of the name of Piper? - A. Yes, I do.
Q. A man who was examined at Bow-street? - A. Yes.
Q.Tell me if you know either of the three prisoners at the bar? - A. I do not personally know them.
Q. Do you recollect the persons of either of them? - A. I recollect a person similar to that man at the bar in the blue coat, Mackay.
Q.Looking at that man, do you believe he was the man that was at your house? - A. I believe that is the man that stood at the door when Piper presented a note to me.
Q.What day was it that Piper came to your house? - A. I think it was the 5th of December.
Q.What business did Piper come to your house upon? - A.Piper came to the bar, and asked me how I did; I told him I was very well; he said, he wished to speak to me; I shewed him into a small room, and he presented a 51. note; he wished to borrow 4l. upon that note; it was the British Linen Company's note; he wanted some money to pay his landlord; I told him I did not with for the note, I would lend him 4l. he said he did not wish to borrow the money, he wanted to have the note changed; he delivered the note into my hand; I looked at it, and discovered it to be a common piece of paper, with a stamp at the top of it; I told him to take it to the person from whom he received it, and not to offer it to any body again; I told him it was a forgery.
Q.Did you make any observation upon the note? - A. Yes, I shewed him the signature of the accomptant and cashier, that they were both one hand-writing; I discoveved there was a drop of grease in the middle of it.
Q.Look at that note? - A. I believe that was the note that was offered to me.
JAMES WEBSTER sworn. - Q.You are an apprentice to Mr. David Howie , master of the Osnaburgh Packet to Dundee? - A. Yes.
Q.Did you fail in the Osnaburgh Packet on Tuesday the 7th of December last for Dundee? - A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember a person of the name of John Piper coming on board? - A.Mackay came on board first.
Q.Which is Mackay? - A. That is him, that long, tall man in a blue coat; the hawser was cast out, and just as we were going away he came on board; he asked to come on board, and my master said, he would not stop for any body; he came on board, and brought three bundles with him.
Q.Do you mean that Mackay brought them on board? - A. I think so, but I cannot be certain; Piper came on board in the Pool.
Q.Which of the men brought the bundles you don't recollect? - A.No.
Q.Were they brought by one or the other of them? - A.After they were on board, Piper came and asked where these bundles were; I took him down to the cabin, and shewed him where they were; I came out of the cabin, and left him there.
Q.Where was Mackay? - A.He was upon deck.
Q.Did Piper and Mackay seem to be acquainted together? - A.No, they did not; they did not speak a word during the passage; I put the bundles into one of the beds.
Q.Whose bed? - A.Into Piper's bed; they were all packed together, and when night came, Piper handed them over to Mackay, and Mackay put them into his bed, and when they got a shore at Dundee, some town officers came on board.
Q. To whom were the bundles delivered then? A.One of the officers told Mackay to get out his bundle, and he only took up two bundles; he left the other in his bed; the next day, when the Captain came on board, he ordered me to clean out the cabin; I made Mackay's bed first, and I wondered to see the pillow lay so high at the head; I listed up the pillow, and there I saw a bundle.
Q.Was it one of the three bundles that you had placed in Mackay's bed? - A. Yes.
Q.To whom did you deliver that bundle? - A. I gave it to my master.
Q.Do you know what he did with it? - A.He took it, and locked it in his chest.
Q.Did you see him afterwards give that bundle to any body? - A.No, I did not; my master went away, and informed the Magistrate of it.
Captain HOWIE sworn. - Examined by Mr. Knapp. Q.You are captain of the Osnaburgh? - A. Yes.
Q.You set sall for Dundee on the 6th of December? - A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember Mackay being on board you? - A. Yes, I remember him very well.
Q.Do you remember a person of the name of Piper being on board? - A. Yes.
Q.Were you on board at the time Mackay came on board? - A. Yes.
Q.And the time Piper came on board? - A. Yes.
Q.Did they bring any bundles with them? - A. I don't know.
Q.Had you any bundle delivered to you afterwards by the last witness? - A. Yes.
Q.What did you do with that bundle? - A. I put it in my chest.
Q.Were Piper and Mackay taken into custody on board your vessel? - A.They were.
Q.What did you do with the bundle after you put it in the chest? - A. I looked at it before I put it in my chest, and discovered twelve notes of the British Linen Company, six filled up and six not.
Q.Did you deliver them to any body, and to whom? - A. I delivered them to the town officer, Moncrief.
Q.Should you know them again if you were to see them? - A. Yes.
Q.Take them in your own hand (shewing them to him,) and looking at them all, tell us if you believe these to be the ones you delivered to Moncrief? - A. I have no doubt they are the same; I marked them before I delivered them to him.
Q.They all appear to be notes of the British Linen Company of Edinburgh? - A. Yes.
Q.Six filled up and six not? - A. Yes.
Q.Was Clark with Moncrief at the time the prisoner was taken into custody? - A. Yes.
Q.(To Sinclair.) Take these notes into your hand, and tell us whether these notes that are filled up are genuine notes? - A.They are all forged notes.
WILLIAM CLARKE sworn. - Examined by Mr. Knowlys. Q.You are one of the town officers of Dundee? - A. Yes.
Q. In consequence of any information, did you apprehend Mackay and Piper? - A. Yes.
Q.Did you take them before they landed from the Osnaburgh packet? - A. Yes.
Q.Was Moncrief with you? - A. Yes, there were three of us; Colin M'Ewen was with us.
Q.At the time you apprehended these two persons, did you observe Mackay do any thing particular between the vessel and the shore? - A. Mackay took up the skirts of his coat, and while I was looking at him, a man called to me to steer to such a point of the land, in order to escape the crowd that was upon the Pier; I was at the helm; while I was looking at that, I heard a sharp splash in the water; then I looked very earnestly, but did not see any thing.
Q.Had you observed Mackay at that time? - A. No, only a sort of motion, but what it was I cannot say.
Q.What sort of a motion? - A.He was just moving himself on his seat.
ISABEL BARCLAY sworn. - Examined by Mr. Knapp. Q.Where do you live? - A.At Balmerino.
Q.How far from Dundee? - A.About three miles.
Q.On Friday the 17th of December, were you with your sister Agnes at the sea-side? - A. Yes.
Q.At what time of the day? - A. It was in the forenoon, after breakfast time.
Q.What were you doing there? - A.Getting pebble stones.
Q.Did you find any thing? - A. Yes; my sister was before me, and she found the notes in a book; she took out the notes, and shewed them me; she found one note first, and then she found the book.
Q.Can you read? - A. No.
Q.Did you find any thing else? - A. Yes, a torn letter.
Q. Did you find any thing else? - A. Yes, we found two other notes.
Q.Did you find any thing else? - A.No.
Q.Did you give all you found to your mother? - A. Yes.
AGNES BARCLAY Sworn. - Examined by Mr. Knowlys. A.You live at Balmerino? - A. Yes.
Q.Do you recollect being on the shore with your sister picking pebbles? - A. Yes.
Q.Did you find any thing while you were by the ses-side? - A.I found a note first.
Q.Can you read; - A.No.
Q.It was a bit of paper that they told you afterwards was a note? - A. Yes; then I found a torn letter.
Q.Whatever you found by the ses-shore, did you give to your mother? - A. Yes.
Mrs. BARCLAY sworn. - Q.Are you the mother of these two little girls? - A. Yes, I sent them to gather pebble stones, and they brought me back a pocket-book and some paper.
Q.Can you read? - A. Yes; they brought me a torn letter, directed to John Mackay.
Q.Look at these things, did they give you all of them? - A. Yes, they did.
Q.Did they give you any thing else that has been destroyed? - A. Yes, they brought me a torn letter, which my bairns have destroyed.
Q.Did you see your children destroy it? - A.Indeed I did; it was directed to John Mackay, at the Blue Boar, in London.
Q.Did it mention any part of London? - A.The Blue Boar, in London; it was signed by John Syme.
Q.Who did you afterwards deliver them up to? - A.To Mr. Ogilvie, at the bank of Dundee; I took them all to Dundee.
Q.Did you appear before Mr. Bell, the Magistrate? - A. Yes.
Q.Did Mr. Bell mark them in your presence? - A. Yes.
Cross-examined by Mr. Gurney. Q.Your children brought you a pocket-book and some notes? - A. Yes.
Q.You shewed them about to your neighbours, did not you? - A.No, not till I went to Dundee with them.
Q.When was it you took them to Dundee? - A.I had them from Friday to Tuesday.
Q.Do you mean to say that none of them were out of your possession? - A. No foul had them but me.
Q. Did not you offer some of them? - A. I took one to Dundee, and the man told me there were two men taken up about them.
Q.Did you leave them with that man? - A.No.
Q.Were ever any of them out of your custody? - A.No.
Mr. BELL Sworn. - Examined by Mr. Knowlys.
Q.You are a Magistrate in Dundee? - A. Yes.
Q.Was the last witness and her daughters examined before you? - A.They made a declaration before me, as we call it in Scotland.
Q.Where the notes they produced marked by you as produced before you? - A. Yes.
Q.Did you mark the pocket-book as produced before you? - A. Yes.
Q.Look at these? - A.They are all marked by me.
Q.(To Sinclair.) Look at these four notes picked up on the shore, are they forged notes or not? - A. They are forged notes.
GARNETT TERRY Sworn - Examined by Mr. Knowlys. Q.I believe you are an engraver to the Governor and Company of the Bank of England? - A.I am.
Q.How many years have you been an engraver? - A.Between thirty and forty years.
Q.Look at the note in question (shewing is to him,) and look at this plate, and tell me if that note appears to you to be printed from that plate? A.It is.
Q.Now look at these twelve notes found in the bundle, and tell me if they have been printed from that plate? - A.These were all printed from one plate, and from this plate which I have in my hand.
Q.Now look at these four? - (The four found on the sea-shore.) - A.These are printed from one plate, and the plate I have in my hand.
NATHANIEL LOARING Sworn. - Examined by Mr. Knapp. I am clerk to the Solicitor for the Bank of England.
Q.Did you go with an officer of the name of Parkhurst to apprchend Catapodi? - A.I did.
Q.When? - A.On Christmas-day laft.
Q.Where did you go to? - A.To his house in Surrey, near the Obelisk, in St. George's fields; when we went, he was not at home; we made a fearch in his boxes, bureau, and so on.
Q.Did you find any thing? - A. The officer in my prefence took an engraved copper-plate out of the bureau.
Q.Look at that plate, and tell us if that is the plate he found? - A. Yes, it is; it was in one of the drawers of the bureau; his wife gave the officer the key.
Q.Did you find any thing else that is material? A.No.
Q.How soon did Catapodi come home? - A.After waiting about an hour, he came home; his wife told him, we had been fearching his bureau, and taken something out; he said oh! what, the plate for the Scotch notes? oh, certainly, I put that there myself! he said he got the plate engraved and the notes printed for some people, but he would not tell us the name of the people; he said they were Scotch notes; it was no offence in this country, and he said he should have no objection to tell us every particular about it; I asked him who was the printer, and who was the engraver, and he refused to tell me.
Mr. Alley. Q.Did he not say this under and expectation of becoming a witness? - A.Not that I know of; I asked him why he would not tell me; he said, it was only wasting the young man's time to take him up; I told him the officer must take him to Bow-street, and he would undergo some examination; but while we were at the officer's house, I think Carprneal's, or at the Office, I cannot recollect which, the prisoner Foss, was also in custody; he had been apprehended; first, Catapodi said, Foss had got the Company's seal engraved; Foss was present, and heard it; he desired Foss to give up the feal, telling him they could not hurt him for it, and it was of no confequence; Foss said, he certainly had no such thing, and he did not know what Catapodi had been talking about; he offered the next morning, before the magistrate, if he would admit him an evidence, that he would tell who he got it done for.
Q.Did you see any thing found upon Foss? - A.There was a watch upon the table at Foss's lodgings, which I took, and delivered it to the officer; I have not seen it since; Foss told me, it was his watch, in his lodgings.
Q.The watch was taken before the Magistrate? - A. Yes.
( Jonathan Trott produces the watch.)
Q.(To Mr. Loaring.) Is that the watch? - A.I cannot swear to its being the watch, it is like it.
Q.(To Trott.) Who did you get the watch from? - A.From Carpmeal; he is very ill in bed.
Q.Had the watch, found at Foss's lodgings, any chain of seal to it? - A. Yes, it had.
Cross-examined by Mr. Alley. Q. Did not Catapodi expect, when he faid this, that he would be admitted King's evidence. - A.I did not say any thing to him, from which he could expect that.
MR. FRESHFIELD Sworn. - Examined by Mr. Knowlys. Q.You are one of the Solicitors for the Bank of England? - A. Yes.
Q.And the Solicitor who conducts this prosecution? - A. Yes.
Q. Were you present before the Magistrate, when Foss and Catapodi were in custody? - A. I was there on the 25th of January.
Q.At that time was there any examination taken in writing? - A.None of the prisoner.
Q.Do you recollect seeing a watch there? - A. The prisoner, Foss, applied to have some money delivered up to him, which the officer had; the officer produced some money, and also the watch, with the chain and seal belonging to Foss.
Q.What officer was that? - A. Carpmeal.
Q. Was any thing said respecting the watch? - A. Mackay claimed the watch as his.
Q. That watch that was produced by Carpmeal? - A. Yes, and Foss said it was Mackay's, but the chain and feal belonged to him; the chain and seal were then taken off, and given to Foss; I desired the officer to keep the watch.
Q.(To Mr. Loaring.) Was there any more than one watch taken from Foss at his lodgings? - A.No, no more than one.
JOHN PIPER Sworn. - Examined by Mr. Knowlys.
Q.How long have you been acquainted with the prisoner, Mackay? - A.Eight or nine months.
Q.When did you first come to London? - A. The Ist of August last.
Q.At whose desire did you come to London then? - A.At the desire of Mr. Mackay.
Q. What were you to do for Mackay in London? - A. I carried some letters for him.
Q.Do you know the two other prisoners at the bar, Foss and Catapodi? - A. Yes, I do.
Q. Upon that occasion, did you bring any letter to Foss? - A. Yes.
Q.Did you know how to find Foss by the direction, or did you enquiry for him? - A. I found him out by enquiry.
Q.Did you deliver the letter to him which Mackay gave you for him? - A. Yes.
Q.Had Mackay led you to expect any thing for yourself in coming to London? - A. I was to get the loan of one hundred pounds for twelve months, and my expences paid.
Q.Did Mackay tell you the contents of that letter at all? - A. Yes, he did, of one of the letters, but not of the others.
Q.Did you get the loan, as you were promised, in London? - A.No.
Q.In whole house did you see Foss? - A.At his brother's house, in Queen-street, Seven Dials.
Q.Did Foss recommend you to any house? - A. Yes, to one Smith's, who keeps the Cock and Magpye, in Drury-lane.
Q.How long did you stay in London, expecting this loan? - A.I suppose about three weeks.
Q.Before you left London, did you fee Catapodi? - A. Yes, I did.
Q. Who shewed you Catapodi? - A.The prisoner, Foss.
Q.Where did he introduce you to Catapodi? - A.At a public-house, in St. George's-fields, the Duke of York.
Q.Not getting your loan, did Foss say any thing to you for you to report to Mackay, respecting Catapodi? - A. Yes, Foss and Catapodi had some private conversation.
Q.Did they appear like persons well acquainted together before? - A. Yes, very well; after that conversation (which I did not hear) Foss delivered me a message; he desired I would tell Mackay, that I had been in company with a gentleman that used to do business for him when he was at Liverpool.
Q.Did you learn his name at that time? - A.I did not.
Q. At that time you were not acquainted with his name? - A.No.
Q.Did you then return to Scotland? - A. Yes.
Q.Did you see Mackay? - A. In my way to Scotland I did.
Q.Did you deliver the message which Foss had desired you to deliver to Mackay? - A. Yes.
Q.How long after was it before you were applied to again to come to London with Mackay? - A. I suppose about two months after.
Q.I believe you were a little despleased at being disappointed? - A.Very much, indeed.
Q.Did you consent to come up to town with Mackay? - A. At the first I refused to go, because my friends were against it; I afterwards consented.
Q.Were you at all at this time acquainted with any thing that took place respecting these Linen Company's notes? - A.Nothing at all.
Q.You came up to London with Mackay? - A. Yes.
Q.Where did you lodge when you came to town with Mackay? - A. At the Blue-Boar, in Rosemary-lane, kept by a person of the name of Hall.
Q.Had you different beds? - A. We slept together in one bed.
Q.How came Mackay to find out Foss and Catapodi? - A. I found them out for him.
Q.Did you accompany him while you were in London to Foss and Catapodi? - A. I did.
Q.When you first accompanied him to Foss and Catapodi, did you know the nature of the business they were transacting together? - A.By no means.
Q.Did they permit you to be of their counsels when talking in private? - A. They did not.
Q.Where did you meet Foss and Catapodi? - A. I met Catapodi at the Duke of York, St. George's-fields, and Foss at his brother's house, in Queen-street, Seven-Dials.
Q.Did you meet Foss at any other place besides his brother's? - A. Yes, a house in Threadneedle-street, the King's-Arms, I think.
Q.Who did you meet there? - A.Catapodi, Foss, and Mackay; we were all four together.
Q.Do you know a house, the sign of the Dolphin, on Ludgate-hill? - A. No, I never was there.
Q.Did you go to Smith's, in Drury-lane, the second time of your coming up? - A. Yes.
Q.Who went with you? - A. I met Foss and Mackay at Smith's house.
Q.Tell us when you became acquainted first with what they were transacting together? - A.It was in Rosemary-lane.
Q.How long did you stay in London with Mackay? - A.Very nigh a month.
Q.Do you know whether Mackay, at the time he lodged at the Blue-Boar, was acquainted with any man of the name of Syme? - A. He was acquainted with a man of the name of Syme, in Scotland, but not in England that I know of.
Q. Do you know if he had any correspondence with that person while he was in London? - A.There is no doubt of it, I am sure he had.
Q.How do you know it? - A. I saw him write a letter to him; he holds a house of him.
Q.Where does he live? - A.At Forres, in Scotland.
Q.Do you know if Syme wrote to him while he was in London? - A. Yes, while he was at the Blue-Boar; I saw the letter.
Q.Tell us what acquaintance you had with this transaction of the notes? - A. I got three notes from the prisoner, Mackay, one after another, to go and cash for him, in the month of December last.
Q.Do you know a person of the name of Read? A.I do.
Q.What public-house does he keep? - A. The St. Andrew, in Wapping.
Q.Did you go there upon any business? - A.I did.
Q.Tell us what business you went for to Read's? - A.To get a Scoth note cashed.
Q. Of what value, and of what bank? - A.Five pounds was the value, and the bank was the British Linen Company.
Q.Did you get the cash for it at Read's? - A.No.
Q.Who went with you to Read's? - A.Mackay.
Q.Tell us all that passed at Read's respecting that note? - A. Mr. Read said he could not spare the cash for it; and I told Mackay so, but he would let him have what cash he had got, and let him have the balance when he left the town; I then returned to Read, who had no objection to give me the 4l.
Q.You say you returned to Mr. Read, where was Mackay at that time? - A.Mackay was waiting at the door.
Q.Did you desire him to advance you money upon the note? - A. Yes; Read told me he had no objection to give me 4l. upon the notes as Mackay requested, and I gave him the notes; Read then went our with the note, and was about two or three minutes out; when Mackay saw that he went away, he left me there.
Q.When Read returned, did he advance the money upon it? - A. No, he returned and told me it was a bad note.
Q.Did he return you the note? - A. He returned me the note.
Q.Who did you give it to after he returned it? - A.To him, in his own lodging, in Rosemary-lane.
Q.Was there any thing particular about that note by which you should know it again? - A. Yes, there was a small spot of grease upon it.
Q.Look at that note? - A. This is very like it, I think.
Q. Do you believe it to be the same note? - A.I think that is it; the spot of grease is rather larger.
Q.Did you tell Mackay what Read had told you? - A.I did.
Q.What did Mackay say? - A.He said, it was a good one, and the people in London did not know any thing about Scotch notes; that if he was in Scotland, there would he no hesitarion about it.
Q.At this time do you know whether Mackay had any other notes? - A. Yes, he had.
Q.How many? - A. I suppose eighteen or twenty.
Q.How do you know? - A. I saw them that night in his pocket-book.
Q.Did he say any thing more about these notes? - A.After a great deal of conversation, he shewed me the notes, and told me they were bad ones; I was very much displeased at his imposing upon me to go out and cash these bad notes for him.
Q.Tell us all that he said about these bad notes? - A.He told me at length that they really were bad ones; that he was going to meet the party in Threadneedle-street on Saturday night, and if I chose to go with him, I should see the person that made them.
Q.Did you go with him? - A. I went with him at last to a house called the King's Arms, or the King's Head, in Threadneedle-street.
Q.Did he at all explain to you, before you went to the King's Head, what was his errand in London? - A.He told me it was for the purpose of getting some of these notes from Catapodi.
Q.When you went with him to Threadneedle-street, who did you see there? - A.I was desired by him to go to Foss at his own house, and to say that he and Catapodi would wait for him at the King's Head, in Threadneedle-street.
Q.Did you all meet together there? - A. We all met together.
Q.What passed then? - A.The prisoner, Catapodi, did not seem much to agree to take me into company.
Q.Did Mackay or Foss say any thing to that? - A.They had no objection; Mackay said, he had nothing to fear from me, that I was a friend of his.
Q.Did they then permit you to stay among them? - A. Yes, they had no objection.
Q.What passed then? - A.They were talking about the superscriptions of these notes, and about the feal.
Q.Did you see any thing produced? - A. I saw there a steel seal produced.
Q.Who produced it? - A. I suppose it was Catapodi's, but I saw it in the hands of Foss.
Q.Why did you suppose it was Catapodi's? - A.Because Mackay told me that Catapodi had the whole management of the business.
Q.Besides the seal, what else did you observe? - A. I saw a small slip of paper, with three impressions of the seal made upon it.
Q.What was said about these three impressions? - A.Mackay said these three impressions were too slight to have the desired effect upon the notes.
Q.Did any body make any observation upon that? - A. Yes; Catapodi said he would after it, and recommended that a small piece of lead should be got; that they should put the note upon the lead, and stamp it on the lead, it would then have the desired effect.
Q.What was said to that? - A. It was agreed upon by the whole party that they should take that method.
Q.Who took away the seal then? - A.Henry Foss.
Q. You have talked about notes, did you see any notes at that meeting? - A. I saw Mackay take out his pocket-book, shew some of the notes, and find fault with the superscription.
Q.Was there any thing else produced? - A.Nothing else at that time.
Q.Did you, at any time, see any ink produced? - A.There were two phials of ink produced that night; Catapodi produced them, and gave them to Mackay; one was red, and the other black; Catapodi told me the ink he had formerly procured he thought infufficient for the purpose; then he put these two bottles into his hand, and he told him, that whatever quantity he wanted when he was in Scotland, he would send it upon his sending the money.
Q.Who was to keep this ink? - A.Mackay himself.
Q.For what purpose? - A. I don't know.
Q.Did Mackay say whether he should want any or not? - A.He said he should have occasion for more soon.
Q.More notes, or more ink, or what? - A.More notes.
Q.After you had parted, and Foss taken away the seal, did you afterwards see Foss? - A. Yes, there was an appointment made the next day; Foss and Mackay were to meet at Foss's house.
Q.Did you meet? - A.We did.
Q.Did you see what Mackay did with the notes? - A. Yes, at the meeting, the next day, he gave them to Foss.
Q.Do you know how many, as near as you can guess? - A.Twelve or thirteen.
Q.You did not count them? - A. No.
Q.Did you see what Foss did with them after Mackay had given them to him? - A. No; he ordered Foss to go to some person with these notes.
Q.For what purpose? - A.For the purpose of stamping them, as I understood from Mackay.
Q.What became of Foss after this? - A.He went out, and was absent about half an hour.
Q.What did he bring back with him? - A.He brought some notes back, stamped, with a seal upon them.
Q.Did you go home with Mackay after he had got the notes stamped? - A.I did.
Q.Did Mackay look at them before you parted? - A.He did.
Q.Did he say any thing about them? - A.Not till he got home to the Blue Boar; he said they were very well done.
Q.What did he do with them? - A.He put them into his pocket-book; but upon putting them in, he found that three were not stamped.
Q.Did you sleep together that night? - A. Yes; next morning he told me to take these notes to Foss, and desire him to get them done like the other.
Q.Before you left the house, did you see Mackay do any thing? - A. I saw him on the Sunday; he got up a little before me, and came to a small table, and took out four notes, and I saw him write upon three notes from a fourth, which he had by him.
Q. That was the writing part? - A. Yes.
Q.How soon after that was it that you left the house? - A.On Monday morning; I went with the three unstamped notes to Foss.
Q.Did you find Foss? - A.No, I found him on Tuesday morning; I delivered him three unstamped notes.
Q.Did you see what he did with them? - A.He ordered me to wait till he returned; after he had been gone about half an hour, or twenty minutes, he returned with a bit of lead in one pocket, and a feal in the other.
Q.Did you see what he did with the lead and the seal? - A. Yes; he put the lead upon the ground, put the notes one by one upon the lead, then he put the seal upon them, and knocked it with a hammer, which produced the impression very clearly.
Q.What did you do with them? - A. I returned to Mackay, and found he was gone on board a ship; I wished to go with him, as he promised to pay my passage.
Q.Did you follow him on board the ship? - A.I did.
Q.What ship was it? - A.The Osnaburgh packet.
Q.Did you find the ship at the wharf? - A. No, she had left the wharf; I took a boat, and overtook her; I found Mackay on board.
Q.Did you deliver any thing to Mackay when you got on board? - A. Yes, the three notes.
Q.Do you know of any bundles? - A. Yes, he had a bundle, and I had a small bundle myself.
Q.Did you keep any of those notes in your bundle? - A.No, I never had any.
Q.At the time you delivered the notes to Mackay, was all the printed part done? - A. Yes.
Q.When you got on board the packet, you went to Dundee? - A. Yes.
Q.You were both apprehended at Dundee? - A. Yes.
Q.Were you taken from the ship directly on shore, or from some distance? - A. We were taken at a distance from shore in the river.
Q.Do you recollect any thing happening before you got on shore? - A. I saw Mackay take out his pocket-book, and slip it over the edge of the boat.
Q.Did you know what pocket-book he had at that time? - A.I think it was a red Turkey one; I never saw him with more than one.
Q.Was it such a one as this? - A. Yes, I believe that is the pocket-book.
Q.And that you saw him slip over-board? - A. Yes.
Q.You were taken into custody, brought up to London, and then you gave your information? - A. Yes.
Cross-examined by Mr. Gurney. Q.You had no notion at all of these notes being forged? - A.Not till I was detected offering a bad note to be oashed to Read.
Q.You had no suspicion at all till then? - A.No.
Q.You were a very honest man, had fallen into bad hands, and had not the least notion that any of these notes were forged? - A.I had not.
Q.I dare say you can read and write? - A. Yes.
Q.Before that, according to your own account, you had heard some conversation about stamps? - A. No, I don't recollect.
Q.You have given some account to day of a conversation about stamps before you went to Read? - A. Yes.
Q.Did you think London was the place in which the British Linen Company manufactured their notes? - A.No, I had no reason to think so.
Q. And yet you thought the notes genuine at that time? - A. Yes.
Q.If you had not thought they were genuine, you would not have done any thing whatever respecting them? - A. No, I should have had no part in it whatever.
Q.When you went, according to your own account, to Foss to get them stamped, you thought they were genuine notes? - A.No.
Q.You said you would not have had any thing to do with them if you had known it - why did not you leave their company directly? - A.Because I could not get home; it was merely for the purpose of getting home to Scotland.
Q.You went to Foss, and saw him stamp them, and you did all this merely to get home to Scotland, and that you expect to be believed? - A. I hope so.
Q.Had you ever seen any of these notes in Scotland? - A.But very few of the five-pound ones.
Q.As five-pound notes were searce in Scotland, you was surprised there were so many in London? - A.There were but eighteen.
Q.This inflexible honesty, that was not to be overcome but by the hope of a voyage home, of course led you to give information to the Magistrate? - A.No, I did not.
Q.When was it you first gave information about this business? - A.At Dundee.
Q.Perhaps at that time you were in custody? - A. I was.
Q.You know you were in custody respecting forged notes? - A. Yes.
Q.And then you rather chose to give evidence against somebody else, than that any body should give evidence against you? - A. I did not mind who gave evidence against me.
Q.Had you no fears about it for yourself? - A. No, only for fear of being disrgraced.
Q.But no fear of being punished? - A. No.
Q.Then you gave evidence upon patriotic principles, to punish guilty men - purely for the sake of public justice? - A. I think it is very proper.
Q.And you did it merely because it was proper, and not for your own safety? - A. Yes, I did.
The prisoner, Mackay, left his defence to his Counsel.
The other two prisoners were not put upon their defence.
Mackay, GUILTY, Death, aged 34. Of uttering knowing it to be forged.
[ Case reserved for the opinion of the Twelve Judges .]
Foss, NOT GUILTY.
Catapodi, NOT GUILTY.
Second Middlesex Jury, before Mr. Justice Heath.
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